A Heart That Beats for Home
My journey as a wife and mom has been an incredible source of growth and learning, and I'm thrilled to share the insights I've gained with you through this podcast. Each episode is a heartfelt exploration of what truly makes a house feel like a home, drawing from my own experiences and the valuable lessons I've gathered along the way.
Whether you've been a parent for years, are embarking on the adventure of newlywed life, or are navigating the beautiful complexities of family dynamics, I hope you'll discover something meaningful here.
Throughout our conversations, we'll delve into topics such as parenting, marriage, achieving harmony between work and home life, fostering thriving relationships, and infusing faith into our daily experiences. My goal is to create a welcoming space where we can come together, share our stories, and offer support as we journey towards building strong and loving families.
I extend a heartfelt invitation for you to walk alongside me on this journey of growth and exploration, resonating with the rhythm of "A Heart That Beats for Home." Together, we can flourish and learn as we delve into the depths of parenthood, marriage, and the essence of family life.
A Heart That Beats for Home
54. Jesus Doesn't Care About Your Messy House with Dana K. White
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Join us for a heartfelt conversation with Dana K. White, the creative genius behind "A Slob Comes Clean." Dana opens up about her journey from a theater arts teacher to a stay-at-home mom, sharing how her struggles with home organization propelled her into a successful writing career. With her books "Decluttering at the Speed of Life" and "How to Manage Your Home Without Losing Your Mind," Dana offers a refreshing perspective on finding beauty amid life's chaos. Her candid insights reveal how embracing imperfections can lead to profound personal and spiritualgrowth and inspire others to tackle the clutter in their lives.
Explore the realities of maintaining a tidy home as we uncover practical strategies for decluttering and organization. Debunking the myth that daily maintenance requires perfection, we highlight how simple tasks like consistently doing the dishes can make a big difference. Dana introduces the concept of a "clutter threshold," offering valuable advice on starting with visible spaces to regain control.
We challenge societal pressures and the misconception that a perfect home equates to a perfect life. Dana's latest book, "Jesus Doesn't Care About Your Messy House," questions the notion that cleanliness is tied to spiritual worth. We emphasize the importance of vulnerability, urging listeners to find peace in imperfection and to seek help when needed. As we wrap up, our focus shifts to cultivating strong families by fostering kindness and creating warm, accepting home environments. Join us on this journey to discover how embracing the mess can lead to a more fulfilling and joyful life.
You can Find Dana at - https://www.aslobcomesclean.com/
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Hey friends, I'm Nikki Smith, your host here at A Heart that Beats for Home, the podcast where we're ditching filters and diving headfirst into the raw beauty of all things home. Now, I am no expert when it comes to this whole parenting and marriage dance. I'm simply a gal who's been riding the mom roller coaster for 22 years and a wife still untangling the mystery of it all 25 years after saying I do. My goal is to bring you unapologetically messy and boldly genuine conversations about cultivating strong families. We're gonna laugh, possibly cry, and straight talk about the joy and chaos that comes within the four walls that we call home. No judgment and certainly no perfection, just real talk from my heart, a heart that beats for home. Let's dive in. Hello friends, welcome back to another week here at the podcast. I am super, super excited for our guest today, dana K White.
Speaker 1:I was introduced to Dana, my goodness, years ago through my AirPods, when I was in a frantic state of wanting to get my home organized and literally, in Audible, googled, organization, clean my house all of the words that we look for when we're desperate.
Speaker 1:And a couple of books came up. One was Decluttering at the Speed of Life and the other one was how to Manage your Home Without Losing your Mind, and I was like this is where I have to start. And so I purchased that one and within a day and a half, while I was organizing my house, while I was putting into practice what Dana was sharing, I was working through all of the things and then went right to the next book and have been a fan, a listener, of the podcast. Dana is an author, she's a Wall Street Journal bestseller and is a writer, a podcaster, a blogger, a mom, and is the mastermind behind A Slob Comes Clean, which started, I believe, if I'm correct, in 2009, with you being anonymous as Noni, so that nobody knew who you were. So, dana, I would love for you just to take a minute and introduce yourself to the listeners, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. You know that it's Noni, because sometimes people hear it, see it spelled, they think Noni my best friend's always like it's short for anonymous, so it should be Noni. And I'm like I made it up, I get to say it how I want to say it. That's right, yeah, so so yeah, my story is that I wanted to be a writer. I have a creative soul, right. I was a theater arts teacher before I had kids and then I became a stay at home mom and I always thought writing would be something that would be a creative outlet for me. I was also very driven to write for a living and I didn't know how to make that happen. But I wasn't too worried about it because my kids were still in preschool. I was like, once they go to school, I'll figure it out. And then I discovered blogs in 2008. And I went oh, this is it, I have to do this. I saw people writing, other people were reading it, people were turning into a it Like I have to do this it. You know. I saw people like writing, other people were reading it, people were turning into a business and I was like I've got to do this thing.
Speaker 2:But I didn't start for a year and a half because my house was a disaster. It had always been a struggle, like an intense struggle for me. I thought it would be magically cured once I had kids and I was a stay at home mom. In fact, it actually got worse, and so it was a real, real source of shame for me and because I wanted to write about motherhood and encouraging women and all that, I did not want to live in fear that someone would find out what my house looked like and then I would be, you know, a fraud, basically. You know, even though I had things I was really passionate about that had nothing to do with my house. There is that idea that if you're a great mom, you're supposed to have a perfect house, right, and so I didn't want to feel like I had to hide that. So I was like I've got to get this under control first, and so I'd always been trying to get under control. But now I had this new motivation that I really, really was desperate to write and I wanted to start a blog, and so for about a year and a half I tried and tried and tried, couldn't do it. I mean, I was working like crazy on my house and it was just becoming more and more frustrating because I was like why can't I do this thing, like it's not that I'm not trying, it's not that I'm not working, I it's not that I'm not trying, it's not that I'm not working, it just doesn't work.
Speaker 2:And anyway, I was sitting in church the day before my second child went to kindergarten and I was praying because it made sense to start the blog, because I was like I'm going to have one kid at home, she'll go down for a nap, I could write for a little bit. And I was really frustrated with God because he had not answered my prayer. I had begged God, please fix me, please take this issue away from me. And he had not answered that prayer. And I was frustrated because I wanted to do something that I felt very strongly God had placed in my heart it is the desire to do for him and yet he wouldn't answer the prayer and that was keeping me from doing that thing. And so I was really frustrated. And God said and I don't say that lightly, I don't say it often, right, but I mean it was very clear, right about that. And I was like, okay, that's actually a really good idea. God, okay, okay, like, brilliant, brilliant, right.
Speaker 2:So immediately my brain started firing, because that's how my brain works. So I the name of the blog came to me. At that time I did not like the name, even though it was pretty catchy A slob comes clean because I had never called myself a slob before. In fact, I had many times said it's not like I'm a slob, it's not like I'm sitting around doing nothing, it's not like I like it this way. I don't like it this way anyway, but couldn't think of another name, was desperate to get it started, did start it anonymously, did not even tell my husband what I was doing, and started writing about my house to keep focused on it.
Speaker 2:I always like to be clear, because I think there's an assumption that I was teaching other people from the beginning, and in the beginning I was absolutely not teaching anyone anything. I was just trying to figure out my house. And when people started to find me and say these are my thoughts, these are my struggles, these are my excuses, these are the things that go through my head, they started asking, like please teach us what you're doing, and I just flat out refused. I said first of all, that makes no sense, like why would anyone want to learn about this from me? So it was about two and a half years before I finally accepted that this was the thing God had me to write about and had planned for me to write about.
Speaker 2:I thought it was a practice blog, like I was going to get to learn about blogging while getting my house under control and then I would write about other things. But instead this was the thing, and it took a while to accept that. Okay, I actually do have something of value to share, because most of the people who talk about this stuff didn't know the things I didn't know, because I didn't know what I didn't know. I mean, it was like there was this communication gap between the people whose brains work very differently from mine. They are naturally organized. I'm naturally very unorganized. So I've come to this point where I realized I will never tell you how to have a perfect house, but I can tell you how to go from completely overwhelmed to I got it.
Speaker 1:I can do this thing, yeah, which is so relatable and it's funny because you God, that's an awesome idea. Thank you for this. Let's write about it, but I'm going to do it anonymous because I can't let people know who the slob is behind the blog. But you're really doing it more for really a kind of an accountability to yourself. Were you completely overwhelmed with the response of this is so me. She's being vulnerable and I can totally relate to what she's saying.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's not like things were viral by any means, I'm not saying that, but I was. I did assume in the beginning because I was, I was doing this as a way to learn about blogging. I, even though I wasn't telling anybody I knew about it, I was doing the things like back in the day, you would write a post and you would link it up on these different themes, on bigger blogs, so I would do that kind of stuff to learn about it, and it made me so nervous the first time I did it. I remember the first time I did it, I think, was a menu plan Monday, and and I always, you know, I just assumed some.
Speaker 2:When people came to my blog, they were going to be horrified, right, you know? Because if they, if they, clicked around and found anything other than just the menu plan for that week, they were going to be just, you know, tell me to get off the internet. I should be ashamed of myself, right? Because that's how I felt, that's what, what I thought. And so it was a complete surprise to me that as people started to find my blog, they were not saying that, they were saying I thought I was the only one when I thought I was the only one. So we were finding each other and I was realizing, oh, there are other people out here whose brains work like mine.
Speaker 2:And the other thing, too, is that I, back in the day when someone would comment on your blog, you clicked on their name Cause you're like, oh, my word, somebody commented, when you're so excited and you see who is this person. And these people who were telling me your brain works, the way my brain works, were all highly creative, women, right, and I saw that relationship between creativity the part of me that I say thank you God for making me creative and this struggle that I had. Not that all creative people are messy, but the vast majority of messy people are highly creative. So that relationship and understanding this is how my brain works was transformational for me because it helped me accept that you know what my brain is not a mistake. It is just how I operate, and that's why the advice written by people who have very different brains from me didn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and why you can have compassion on both sides of the story. I love hearing you talk about the first couple of books of yours. Well, especially the one. Managing your Home Without Losing your Mind is not for the highly clean freak person, right? It's everybody, you say, can use the decluttering, because we all have to declutter, but there are just people who keep very, very clean and tidy homes always and those that don't, and you're talking to two different audiences. So I really want to get into like the shame and the identity piece, but I'm going to hold off on those questions because your book that comes out tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Friends, how awesome that we get to have somebody on the podcast the night before they're releasing a book. But we'll talk about that in a second because I'm really excited about that book. But let's talk a little bit more about the practical. So, for somebody who's listening, our audience is primarily moms of all stages and when you started this, you had a three, a five and a seven-year-old and now you're at the empty nest stage. So you have learned this and trained yourself through a really crazy busy season of toddlers and middle schoolers and high school and now college. What are some of the practical things. I know that you've coined a couple of different phrases, things like clutter, threshold or dish math. Talk to us a little bit just about kind of where you started to create some habits that actually made a difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I'm glad you brought up those two things, because if you don't know where to start, start with the dishes, start with the maintenance tasks. And that was very difficult in my brain. I had always resisted anything that was maintenance because my house was not at a state that I wanted to maintain and so it didn't. So the idea of maintaining made no sense to me when I was like, why would I maintain this when in reality the actual change in my home came from those daily tasks. Right, that I had often thought it was maintenance. So if you don't know what to do, do the dishes but also decluttering. So, like dishes and basic daily stuff and decluttering are equally important and decluttering are equally important. But start with the dishes, right? So the dishes math thing is I had always put off doing the dishes for different reasons.
Speaker 2:I call it, I would used to call it, and I always want to be clear. I'm never calling anyone else a slob, right? It is not a nice word, I didn't want to use that word, but I would call it slob vision. I just don't see incremental mess Like. I see perfectly clean and I see overwhelmingly messy, but I don't see it happening Right and so it's. You know, a lot of people are like, well, I can't sleep if there are dirty dishes in the sink, and I'm like it never crosses my mind whether there are dirty dishes in the sink when it's time to go to bed, like what, okay, but because I would wait to do the dishes until I had to do the dishes. But because I would wait to do the dishes until I had to do the dishes, or every time I went to clean the house, I would start in the kitchen. It would take me hours, like I would use up all my time and energy getting the kitchen clean, which was actually getting the kitchen caught up from not doing daily stuff. And because it would take me five hours, I would do the math in my brain. I don't know that I was actually like consciously doing the math, but basically my thought process was oh, it takes five hours to do five days worth of dishes. Obviously, it takes an hour to do the dishes every day. I don't see an hour in my day to do you know. So like that was the subconscious way that I was thinking. And when I started I was like I don't know how other people do it, but they don't seem to have out of control kitchens, and if I could not have an out of control kitchen I could actually make some progress in this house. So I'm like I'm going to focus on my dishes.
Speaker 2:By doing my dishes every single day, I realized, oh, one day's worth of dishes takes 15, 20 minutes, but if I don't do them, then the next day it's not double that. So it doesn't work the way you think math should work, right, like it's not double the time because now it doesn't all fit in one dishwasher or one seat load. It instead is there are things spread out and I've got to get these. It just takes at least an hour. If I go three days, it takes hours. So it's exponential. And how much longer it takes if I don't do them every day. So, understanding that the hard way is how I was able to make this a habit, not a habit where I do it without realizing I'm doing it, but instead, okay, it's worth it to me to do this tonight. I'd never feel like doing the dishes, but it's worth it because I know from experience, if I don't, this is what's going to happen tomorrow. It's going to be so much harder, right.
Speaker 2:And then the decluttering, the first thing I tell people to do is go to the most visible space in your home Like go, I recommend your entryway and because you got to have somewhere to start and that starting in a visible space, decluttering will mean that you experience the benefits of the work that you do. If you start in an obscure spot in some bizarre place in the house, you're not going to experience the benefits of that right Because you don't use that space all the time. But when you start in a visible space, you and your family members are going to start to realize, because you're experiencing it, how much easier it is to live in a house with less stuff, how much easier it is to keep it under control and to keep it picked up when there's just simply less stuff. So starting with that visibility rule is where I encourage people to start. But, like you said, the clutter threshold. The clutter threshold is the amount of stuff that you can easily keep under control. So if your house feels difficult to maintain you have too much stuff, you have clutter.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I hate to say that because I'm never one to go you have clutter, but I'm not talking about aesthetically Like you could have. You could have your bookshelves completely covered in trinkets and things like that, and it's not clutter unless it gets out of control. Right and so so? And the definition of clutter, according to me, is anything that consistently gets out of control. And so finding your clutter threshold means decluttering to the point where you realize, oh, I can handle this, it's not overwhelming to me. My regular everyday life as it goes right now, I can keep this under control. That is reaching your clutter threshold.
Speaker 1:So many things that you said in there. It's really because for some it might not be a habit, I know. After I was listening to several of your audibles, I was like, okay, the two places that stress me out, that seem to get the most out of control the fastest when you have a family, are laundry and dishes, and you've also talked a lot about how you are wired. Well, if there's only a couple of dishes, it feels like it's not worth the sink or the time until there's more. There's not a full load of laundry For me. We grew up very frugally. My mom could make a penny feed a family and so I had a little bit of that same. Like I can't run the washing machine with four towels when in five days there might be 20.
Speaker 1:And just learning from your teaching like if every night I go do one load of laundry and I load my dishwasher and clean my sink the difference that it makes in a household for the sanity of everybody to have a clean kitchen in the morning, the simplicity of making lunches for school, the simplicity of being able to find our clothes, how that so drastically changed just some of the functions and how then that gives you I know that you have a shirt that you wear that says less equals success and there's just that brain space that makes you just almost take a deep breath when you clean that spot.
Speaker 1:Like you were mentioning, I recently did the pantry and I'm like I really wanted to feed my family on the floor in the pantry because I'm like this space feels so freeing and there's empty space and what it does for your soul. I know I've heard you talk too about you know your house is a container. Your house is a container and asking yourself, I mean it kind of plays into your decluttering but this item that you have, where would I go look for it? That kind of key of if everything has a place, then you eliminate a lot of clutter because you know where everything goes. And when you think about your house as a container, how does that rule kind of play into finding a home for every item that you own?
Speaker 2:finding a home for every item that you own. Yeah, so the phrase that people say, in an attempt to be helpful, of a place for everything and everything in its place was not helpful to me, because I was like what are you talking about? I don't have places for all my things, right? It's true, though. What they're saying is true, but I am the one to use all the words and not just the quick little you know phrases, right, but what it came down to was I had more stuff than could fit in my house, especially with my low clutter threshold, my inability to do complicated organizing systems. But even if I had the most complicated organizing system, I still had too much stuff, but I had never. I don't see limits, right, it's a wonderful quality, but I don't see limits, and so I would just bring all this stuff into my house, thinking I gotta get organized someday, when in reality, I needed to declutter down to where they fit in my space.
Speaker 2:So the container concept is that it's basically just facts. You know that I explained because I always thought containers were for putting things in, and that is actually not what they're for. They are meant to contain, they're meant to serve as a limit, which is. I've written and spoken so many words about it, but it basically comes down to the size of the space. Is the size of the space, and things have to deserve space in there. So I put my favorite things in first and once the space is full, I let the space make the decision of.
Speaker 2:That's all I can keep. If I try to keep more, it will not fit in there and it's never going to have any hope of staying under control. And if it's not under control, then it's clutter, right. So it's this. Letting the space decide takes so much pressure off of me, because I used to pick up every single item in my house and assess its value, like oh, is this a good thing? Assess its value Like oh, is this a good thing, might I ever use it? And I would always say yes, because I have a creative brain that can think of reasons to keep something and how I might use it. Where other people would say that's trash, I'm like oh no, you know, you call it trash, I call it treasure. So, but it was not serving me well because I couldn't actually function in my home, and so decluttering down to the realities of my space is what actually changed things.
Speaker 1:Your house being a container which kind of goes into what you were sharing before, is that your house can only hold so much, and once there's a ton of stuff on the dining room table that you literally cannot find a place for it. You've outgrown the size of your home or your container.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and I always thought I had outgrown my home, Like I always assumed that my problem was that my house wasn't big enough, even though my house was bigger than my friends who kept theirs under control. But it just, it just was logic, right, it was this over logic thing of I don't have enough space. Therefore I'm doomed because I just don't have enough space, where, when I started decluttering and accepting the realities of the space that I did have, my house didn't feel too small anymore. I was like, oh okay, once I embraced the actual space that I have, then it made it easy to get rid of so much stuff and then I ended up liking my house.
Speaker 1:Right and found peace there and enjoyed it. So what was that process like for you? So you go from quote unquote feeling like you were a slob and being embarrassed to I know you talk a lot about. You needed a two week notice for somebody to come to your house and it really limited your ability to even want people in your home and dread and hiding when the doorbell rang, when you started the simple things of okay, I'm going to do my dishes every day. What did that process look like? And what is your encouragement to women of okay, once you start doing the dishes every day, then move on to this. What do those stages look like? To get to the point that your mess ultimately became your ministry and now you teach others how to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, it used to take me two weeks to have people over, which meant I rarely had anybody over, which meant I was not the mother that I wanted to be. I wanted to be the mother whose home was open and available at all times for anything, and yet I wasn't able to do that. Because my house was a disaster, because I had so much stuff, I just didn't have a place to put things Right, and so if I to have to get it ready for people to come over meant shoving everything into the room where I could lock the door and then cleaning for a week. So the two things that will get your house under control and keep your house under control are the dishes and a five-minute pickup. It feels like if your house is where mine was when I started, it feels like those things can't possibly make an impact, but they do. I mean like the. The effect of doing those two things is shockingly powerful. That's not all you're going to do, but it's the thing that keeps things going, so that then it strangely frees up time that will allow you to declutter, and so really, really going with the decluttering.
Speaker 2:The thing about decluttering is, if something leaves my house, I never have to touch it, think about it, move it, put it away ever again, right, and that's that clutter threshold thing. It just simply is gone. And then that's this pressure that I didn't necessarily know was pressure, but it's gone. So where I am now is that we have so much less stuff that even when I'm in the middle of a book launch and life is bananas, my house can't get out of control to the level that it used to right. Like, even when it is quote unquote out of control, it's still 15 minutes away from everything being put away. Because there's so much less stuff and because things actually have a place to go, because I've gotten rid of enough that I only have things that I actually have places for right, and so all of that together means I can open my house up.
Speaker 2:But also it's a mindset shift that I would prefer that you give me 15 minutes warning so I can get things to where I want it to be, if you don't probably still going to let you inside, because I have come to a point where I realize that it's really important for people to see that I'm not perfect. I can't imagine anyone would ever think I'm perfect, but even if someone else's struggle is not their home. They need to see I have a struggle. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like everybody needs to know that everybody has a struggle, and so that pride that used to prevent me from letting people in, although it was really, really bad, you know, it was not just, oh, it's a little bit messy, I don't want you to know. It was really, really bad, right. But even now, when it is a little bit messy and my pride sometimes is like I'd rather them think I'm not here, I know now know how important it is to let people see a lack of perfection, yeah, that, I love that, and I can so relate to that, because I had to get to the point where I had to decide do I want to A never have anybody over?
Speaker 1:not even because it was out of control. But I struggle with perfectionism and so if it wasn't perfect, what did that reflect on me? And did I want to let people into the vulnerable? And having to decide like which one is it going to be? Am I going to not let people in to be seen, or am I going to be seen and have relationship? And I think that that that conversation, dana, is so perfect to kind of swing our conversation.
Speaker 1:So for listeners, I know you want so much more. I want, I know you want all the how to's, all the things. You need to go get the audible books. We're going to give you all the resources. It'll all be in the show notes. You need to download the books and listen to them and walk through how to get your family on board, how to get the kids on board, how to do all the different things. She's got so much great resources, so we'll get those all to you. But recently I was re-listening to one of your podcasts and the trailer or the advertisement was talking about your new book that comes out tomorrow. So by the time this airs, the book will already be out, so you guys can all run and get it wherever you get your books.
Speaker 1:But a book that's called Jesus Doesn't Care About your Messy House. And I heard that I'm going to be totally honest and I was like, but I think maybe he does, I think maybe he does, and so I immediately I was folding laundry when it came on and so I came in my bedroom, I grabbed my phone and I went to Amazon because I'm like I got to read and the tagline of the book is he cares about your heart. And I was like, okay, now she's got me, now I've got to dig in, went immediately and bought it and then went to your website to get the pre-release extra materials and started reading the first little bit that was given to us, and immediately you addressed you might hear this and struggle with it, and you might have been told things like cleanliness is right up there with godliness, and I think of like things that you mentioned. God is a God of order, things that you mentioned. God is a God of order, and so there is so much weight and shame and identity, especially for women, especially for moms, who feel like this is.
Speaker 1:You said it. I need to pull up the exact quote because it was so good. You said the state of my home felt like my job review or my report card and I was failing. Job review or my report card and I was failing. And I think the way that so many women can relate to that statement of this is the world deciding she's either good at what she does or she doesn't have it under control. So you kind of go from this organizational how-to book to boom. We're going to talk about Jesus doesn't care about your messy house. Talk to me about that kind of sway to a different kind of book and what kind of prompted that for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it makes me happy to hear that that was your reaction, because I mean, it's meant to be a jarring title. It's also meant to be a very clear title, because I do not have an audience of only Christian women. Like that is not my audience and I'm very thankful for that. Like I love the people who listen to my podcast, who you know watch my YouTube videos, and there is so much diversity in this audience that I have that God's given me. I I wrote my first three books. They did not contain any Christian content on purpose, and I talk about in the book why they didn't contain Christian content. And that was that.
Speaker 2:You know, as, as women, this is a struggle. As Christian women. There's an extra layer of the struggle, right, like because I would have this this well, I mean, I had this thing that was such a huge source of shame and frustration for me that I already was working on, that, already felt unsolvable. And when someone would try to be helpful by spouting something like God is a God of order, which is out of context, by the way, but anyway. Or you know, god is a God of order, which is out of context, by the way, but anyway, or you know, cleanliness is next to godliness, or you know, I mean I've heard things like it and I get emails from women all the time who tell me things that they've heard. Like you know, if you didn't, if you had more faith, you wouldn't have so much clutter. I mean, I would hear stuff like that and it would take this thing that was already a source of shame and it would layer on spiritual guilt, because now you've taken something that I already feel bad about and now you're telling me it's actually a sign that I'm a bad Christian too, that I don't have enough faith. And so, besides the fact that all those statements are not the least bit helpful, I mean there's no help in saying God is a God of order. That's not helpful to the woman who is struggling in her home, like okay, but what does that mean? Right, because that is under the assumption that you just don't know that, like that, you just want your house to be like this, that you're not even trying that. This is a result of you not understanding that it's a good thing to have your house under control. I never needed to be told that it was a good thing to have a house that was under control. I just didn't know how to do it. So it was never a lack of trying and so it was really important to me to address this issue.
Speaker 2:And also, it's ultimately a book about grace. It's a book about God's grace, how Jesus actually sees us, that it's never through our own efforts that we please God. It is through understanding who he is and what Jesus has done for us. That that's what he sees when he looks at us, you know, and so so it's something where if we let people believe that cleanliness is next to godliness and we don't have the conversation about nothing gets you to godliness except for Jesus alone, like that's it right.
Speaker 2:If we don't have that conversation, then the person who is struggling in her home is scared to look deep into that, because she's like I'm only going to feel worse by looking deeper into this. And so I just dove straight in and I'm like let's really analyze all this and see what the Bible actually says, to make that distinction, to remove that shame, so that you can see, you can know how God sees you and what he's looking at when he sees you, because he made my brain Understanding that the way my brain works is the reason that traditional organizing advice didn't work for me, that instead I needed to figure out what did work for me. God made my brain right. Like it was not a mistake that my brain works the way it works.
Speaker 1:This is you know his design for my brain. I feel like one thing that you brought up too, because I grew up I'm a PK, so I don't think that my parents did or said anything that would have made me read that title and go. I feel like there might be something that I don't agree with, like that was my instinct, but I think it's because of my own pride and I think about all the things that make me feel like, well, if my house isn't spotless and I don't have self-control or, and you know, it's just taking everything and you brought up you brought up in the book right in the beginning, the Proverbs 31 women, and I think we all get that kind of thrown at us. I've heard lots of interesting takes. Again, you say you're not a theologian. I am not a theologian. I do my very best to understand the Word of God as best I can and get advice from others as well.
Speaker 1:But I read one commentary that said there's a really good chance that this Proverbs 31 woman isn't talking about one woman. It's talking about a lot of different women and all these great characteristics from them. But regardless if that's true or not, you take Proverbs 31 and you break it down, character and virtue line by line. And I was. I mean, I've read that. I did the book of Proverbs 12 times last year as part of my Bible reading plan and I never realized that there's not the line that says and her house was very clean and her laundry was all folded Like it's not mentioned. Was that a really big eye-opener for you, when you really realized that?
Speaker 2:It was so. You know, as I worked on my house, I kept there in the beginning and I was Christian and I was just assuming that I had been missing something beginning. And I was Christian and I was just assuming that I had been missing something spiritually, and that was the reason this was such a struggle. Right, I kept assuming God was going to show me something that would be like, oh, I get it now and everything would be easier. And instead, as I worked on my house and I was also really diving deep in Bible study, into grace and how God sees me, god was showing me, dana, I've never cared about your house, I care about your heart, like that's the thing I've always been looking at. And so so I knew this.
Speaker 2:And but when I went to write this book, I'm like you know, I've I've got to address head on what some assumptions are. So I, I Googled, I knew that cleanliness is next to godliness, is not in the Bible. But I was like I I didn't even have to click through All the blurbs would say no, but the idea is there. And then they would go on to refer to the Proverbs 31 woman, as if she gives them validity to the idea that cleanliness is next to godliness, and so I'm like I got to go in. I got to go in and I'm just getting you know, and I read it and I was like there is not a single mention of tidiness or dishes or cleanliness or organization or anything like that. She actually reminds me so much of the women I know who struggle with clutter, because she is highly creative, she's very thoughtful, she is very prepared.
Speaker 2:The people who I work with are rarely struggling with clutter because they got there out of greed. Struggling with clutter because they got there out of greed. It is generally out of a desire to be helpful to others, a desire to be ready to be there in someone's time of need. Like my people are the people who you know see some craft on the internet that requires saving pickle jars, and then they save every jar for the next 20 years, thinking if somebody ever asks for these for a craft, I will actually have all the ones that they need. Like that's the mentality that we have. It's not out of out of a desire to gain more for myself, right? Not that that can't be the issue, but in so many cases it has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 2:And yet the assumption is that it's only out of greed that you would have clutter, right, and so the thing that makes people say or assume that her house was perfect is that it is very clear that she's not lazy. And there is an assumption that the only reason for a house to be messy is laziness. Right, and that is not the case. I'm just going to say it can absolutely, yes, be a result of laziness. Can absolutely, yes, be a result of laziness. But that's where the disconnect was for me, because I was like my house looks like I'm not doing anything, but I was working on it all the time. I was trying so hard and had felt like I had nothing to show for it, because I didn't understand the things I didn't understand that were making it so hard for me to deal with, which was, primarily, I had way too much stuff. But it wasn't out of greed, it was out of all these great intentions, right? So so it this idea that it's laziness? That's one of the big things that I tackle head on in the book is it is not out of laziness For the people who are reading my books.
Speaker 2:It's not out of laziness Because that's the thing is like someone who reads my book or any of my books. They want to change, like they want their house to be under control, because it's not like people read cleaning and organizing books for the kicks. I mean, my goal is to make them entertaining and not be super boring, but the idea of reading a cleaning and organizing book is not, you know, just entertainment, and so so they want to change. This is, and that's the thing too is so many times and this is the case with a lot of things in life is people feel like they're being helpful to point out the problem, but they're not actually giving any actual help. They're not giving any advice that would actually change things.
Speaker 1:Interesting that you bring up laziness, because that is such a big, I want to say for me, I have struggled and I'm learning that rest is important and rest doesn't equate to laziness and all of these things that we've been made to believe. I think, especially as women, if we're home and we are living in a different day and age than 20, 30 years ago where most women, even if they're home, have some kind of a side business. They have a bakery running out of their kitchen, they're working something in their office, they're an author, they're doing all of these other things and yet still being expected to keep this total order, and it's one of the only roles ever that has so much complexity to it. And yet we feel like if I need help, if I need to call in an expert, if I need to maybe hire somebody to do some of the things that I just don't like doing or that I can't manage, then somehow I'm failing. We're in every other role in life. If it's a woman in a workplace or a man in a workplace and they say, hey, I need an assistant, or I need somebody else to do booking of my travel, or I need somebody, it's like good for you for delegating and figuring that out, but for some reason us women really carry that, as that is proving that I have failed and that I'm not able to do this job. That I feel is my primary job and so I just love so much this conversation.
Speaker 1:I really liked, and it convicted, my own spirit when you mentioned I think it's maybe even in the first chapter of those of us that have this guilt that we're trying. You know, it is this effort-based. If I can prove that my house is spotless, if the door can be open to people at all times and they're all wildly impressed with how fabulously I keep home, then I've proved myself to others and to God and I've earned this right. And you said a really interesting thing that the person that judges how other people keep their house has another issue of their own, because I think we can fall in both categories. We can see another woman and go, oh my gosh, she needs to get it together, and that comes from a similar place of pride and works and perfection. So it's just an interesting concept that we as women need to really be, and I just like everybody that's listening, you need to start by first going. I feel like it's now you start current and you work back Like, go get this book about.
Speaker 1:Jesus doesn't care about your messy house, he cares about your heart. I think that there's something powerful in when you start approaching like, okay, I'm going to do the dishes every day. You can almost take it and you can make it a spiritual thing. Lord, I know that this is where I need to start. I really want to have these habits. I want to have these patterns. I know they don't bring me any more value in your sight, that you're not more pleased with me, but I want this and I want to understand. This is not spiritual, but it is a process that I'm working through, in figuring it out, in how I see myself, how I see my relationship with the Lord. How has this really deepened your understanding of God and His love for you, despite the chaos where you feel like you have no control?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, along with what you're saying, is the removal of the shame, which I think this is the gospel, right Like. The removal of the shame is the thing that allows me to move forward. Do you know what I mean? But I'm only moving forward knowing that the shame is gone, that the condemnation is gone, because of what Jesus has already done for me, right, and so it's this grace is the only thing that matters, but it changes us, and so those two things together are really important. So, as far as you know, for me, my, it has been a real realization.
Speaker 2:I talk about this a lot in the book. The value of my weakness, the value of experiencing weakness, of not feeling able and capable, allows me to. It's just a reminder. This weakness, this thorn in my side, this struggle that I have, is a reminder that I can't be perfect, I can't do it on my own, and that reminder helps me rest in what Jesus has already done for me. So, therefore, it makes me almost grateful for the thorn, because that understanding of who I am in relationship with God is so powerful and so deep and so freeing that, if I have to choose between not struggling in my home and not understanding my need for, and the power of God's grace. I'm going to choose to understand God's grace even in the midst of this struggle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, every time and you could equate this out to anything it could be everybody has their own struggle and for somebody that's listening, that maybe is a little bit of a perfectionist OCD which comes with its own struggles and its own realization that you need grace and a savior and that you know you'll never be perfect enough. Everybody has their own struggle and I just think this one is just so relatable to so many people, because every different stage of life brings a different struggle in your home and of schedules and of just being able to feel like am I ever going to be enough? Am I ever going to be able to do it all? I can't get the healthy meals, I can't keep the laundry up, and it does start to just weigh on you as I'm failing.
Speaker 1:And just that freedom in grace and moving forward and making strides and clearly trying to exhibit the self-control and the fruits of the spirit. But going back to our heart and our character far outweighs our home and to get to the place that we're okay enough to say, hey, come on in, it's not perfect, it's very real. And just come on in, it's not perfect, it's very real. And just, I think, how that bonds women together in that vulnerability and that transparency of just being real life and not pretending that we have it all together. I love the work you're doing, dana.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited for this book. I know that we're getting here to the end of our time, so tell our listeners where they can find all of your different resources.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I primarily just teach people how to get their house under control and how to declutter. Which I do want to say, I feel like, is the unique place that God has placed me in my life and in what I do is that your reaction to Jesus doesn't care about your messy house. May come from partly like are you saying a messy house doesn't matter and I have written three books about how to get your house under control, and so I'm in this unique place to say, of course it matters, but it doesn't matter spiritually, so let's make that distinction. So so yeah, I have my other books, so you can always search Dana K White, because there's a man named Dana White who does the ultimate fighting something or other, and that's not me.
Speaker 1:So, anyway.
Speaker 2:So you have to put the K in there. But if you search Dana K White basically anywhere, you'll find me. I'm on YouTube. I have a podcast. I train decluttering coaches because I realized that I'm teaching all this, but some people need somebody to come alongside them and guide them through my process. So, yeah, everywhere books are sold and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:And I love that. You said that whole it does matter because living in an organized space said that whole. It does matter because living in an organized space it brings so much benefit. But, just like everything else, it's not the thing that's going to gain the approval of now I'm worthy and it's just having that balance and ridding yourself of the shame as you work daily to get better and just to truly understand your identity and where that comes from, and that nothing we can do improves that status. So I love that. Okay, very last thing I'm asking you tomorrow your book launches. What does an author do the night before a book launch? What are you doing tonight?
Speaker 2:Well, I have a Bible study I'm going to tonight. I am going to cut out 15 minutes early so I can do a live on my YouTube channel. It's you know. It's funny how often and this book is a little different because it isn't necessarily one that I know everybody you know like my other books, I've been like if you follow me, you need the book, this one. I know there's all kinds of feelings around it, but I can feel like I have talked about it till I'm blue in my face and I will still have people be like what? You have a new book coming out. I had no idea, and so it's that last. I'm going to go live, because I normally go live during the daytime, but I'm like I'm going to do an evening live and hopefully I'll catch some more people, send out an email about it to let people know, you know, just to try to get that last, that last pre-order push. But tomorrow I am planning on I don't know, so I'm going to have my hair in a ponytail tonight.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like that's, that's. That's. Honestly, the hardest thing about getting ready for a book launch is that I can't wear my sweats for all my interviews and stick my hair in a ponytail. So that's, that's my. I'm excited about it Cause I'm like oh, if it's my YouTube live people they'll understand, I'll just stick my hair in a ponytail.
Speaker 1:They know the real me. They know the real me. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly when in an interview. I want to look nice and you know all that Anyway.
Speaker 1:I love it. Well, here's what I'm going to be praying for that title and it triggers something to go do a little bit of digging Because, universally, if organization and mess weighs on your soul and makes you feel not enough, nobody will get out of that cycle until they understand true value and true identity in Christ. And so I'm just going to pray that this book reaches the masses and that it's a conversation starter for people to start digging in to what it would look like to have a relationship with the Lord, so that we can be released of all of the shame and the weight and the pressure of trying to prove that we're good enough. So what you're doing is awesome. I know that we could have just hours and hours of conversation. Maybe we'll do another one with more nitty gritty at some point.
Speaker 1:I know listeners love all things organization, so I just appreciate you being here. Friends, I know that you have somebody that would relate to this, so be sure to go share this, share it on your socials, text it to a girlfriend and let's be kind to one another as women, let's show up and encourage and love each other exactly where we're at, without shame, without judgment, and let's just bond together to make our houses a place and a culture that resonates values and hospitality and the heart of Jesus, so that when people come in, they don't see the mess, they don't see the dishes, they see a heart of a mom who wants to just love people and love Jesus, and so that is our mission in cultivating strong families. Dana, thank you so much for being here and until next week friends take care.